Replacing a kayak with a canoe -- advice?

[Jonathan]

Hi everyone. I'm an avid hiker and backpacker looking to spend more time on the water. I have a sit-on-top kayak that I got in high school, but it gets limited use because I have multiple complaints with it, among them:

-- I find the seating position highly uncomfortable (even with a good seat);

-- I can't (comfortably) stand in the boat, or walk around, lie down/sleep in it, etc.;

-- it has limited capacity for camping (and I can't take a friend);

-- it's annoying to not be able to get to my food, tackle, camera and other gear, and to have to worry about it sliding into the water when I do;

-- it's a major pain to pack the boat up (through the hatches) for an overnight trip.

Basically, the problem with the boat is that it's a kayak. So for all these reasons I'm seriously considering selling the kayak and getting a canoe. Unfortunately, I don't know much about canoes and am not sure how to evaluate them and what features to look for in one, so I could use some advice.

The boat would generally be used for trips of 2 to 6 days.  (I'd like to eventually do the whole WW, but that's a while down the line.) I'd like the option to take a friend with me, if possible, but would usually be paddling solo. It also needs to be something I can car-top alone.

How many of you use a canoe for solo trips in the glades, and what has your experience been? I'd appreciate any suggestions, such as:

-- Would it be reasonable to expect that I could comfortably paddle a smaller tandem alone? Or would I likely need a solo canoe? (I'm in my twenties, but short and light -- ~115 lbs). 

-- Can canoes generally be poled? Are there particular features I should look for in a boat if I'd like to be able to pole it?

-- What are your opinions about canoe materials for the 'glades?

-- Any suggestions for particular models that I might want to consider? Or avoid? (I'm a college student, so I'm on a budget and will probably be getting something used.)

-- Does anyone use one of those small trolling motors on a canoe? Is it worth the expense/trouble? If I'd like to be able to use one, should that affect my boat choice in any way?

-- Is there anything in particular that I should watch out for?

Any advice on any of these subjects would be appreciated!

[Amazon Bill]

I have a 14.5 ft tandem Old Town Guide. It's great with two people and gear. Handles well in tight places with a bit of rocker on each end, and still tracks well open water. The front is a bit short for long legged paddlers. It  has a dual width keel with secondary stability, narrower bottom for light loads then as it settles deeper its wider. Not tippy at all.  It is a beast to paddle as solo in the wind, even with a snap in center seat and a kayak paddle. I have used the electric trolling motor on a clamp on bracket, which is best for one day trips when fishing is the objective.   In the wind, two people paddling have more torque that the motor. The issue is the light canoe gets blown sideways in the wind more than a jon boat. A long day using the motor will drain the battery good, then its 90 pounds of dead wieght. Once my battery tipped on it's side and spilled acid in the boat which ended up on the hood of my wife's  car when we flipped onto the roof! I can still remember,  "Why is the paint bubbling on the hood Dear?"  (:!:) 

I've heard that long canoes 17+ft don't work well in the backcountry.  Sometimes outfitters restock their canoes and sell the old ones cheap.

Other people use solos and have posted info on this site, search the site for info. Below are some links

Old Town site to pick a canoe

Anatomy of a canoe 

 

[Connie Mier]

Jonathan, I converted to a solo canoe from a sea kayak 3 yr ago and have not looked back, so I feel your "pain". You have listed the reasons why I made the switch, but I will also add that it is especially more convenient for chickee camping, I can switch between sitting and kneeling which adds to the comfort, and I find the canoe paddle to be so much easier on my shoulders. There are other reasons too, but more specific to my preferences.

I use a wenonah vagabond, Kevlar version. It Weighs less than 40 lb so I can load it on the car and carry it myself. The gel coat on the boat has been scratched and gouged beyond description. Because of that, the boat has survived the glades oyster beds and oyster encrusted chickees.

I am assuming you fish, hence the poling and trolling questions, so hopefully Vivian will chime in to address that as she fishes from her canoe successfully without either. She also could steer you toward good boat choices. Check out paddling.net as there are usually boats for sale, maybe in your area.

Good luck and if it is any consolation to you, we just got back from 8 days in the glades which included both backcountry and gulf camping. One of our paddling companions used a sit on top scupper pro, as he always does on these long trips. He has thick skin so to speak, but certainly demonstrates that it is more the person than the boat that makes the difference out there.

Connie

[Kim Gass]

You could pole the solos I use from a sitting position. Not usually standing as most are about 25 -28 inches wide. You can use what is referred to as a sitting pole (as opposed to the twelve foot long setting pole), You will also need a mud shoe so it does not continually sink and get stuck.  Many places with mangrove tunnels preclude standing and poling.

I have used a Hemlock Peregrine, Curtis Nomad and Swift Raven and  Placid Boatworks RapidFire.. All are solo canoes . I have spray covers for them on the Gulf. I do not use a motor. All would be big boats for you.  Because you have to carry water there is some advantage in going big, but there is the disadvantage of overcoming skin friction. Solos usually are sized for the paddler. Shorter narrower boats with less skin for those folks that have less horsepower.

I prefer gel coated boats over skin coated boats for their shellfish shell resistance.  You will snug against barnacle encrusted pilings and also occasionally find yourself vs oyster bar.

[Jonathan]

Wow, that's really useful information -- thanks!

It sounds like a motor might be more trouble than it's worth in my case.

In terms of wind trouble in the boat when paddling it solo, is that something that would be an issue with any canoe of roughly that length, or would certain models tend to track much better than others?

Does loading some extra material in the boat (gallon water containers, etc) make it any easier to handle in wind?

[Jonathan]

Hi Connie,

It's encouraging to hear from someone who made the switch and hasn't regretted it. I've looked at the Vagabond, actually (online), and been impressed by it.

What holds me back from just getting a solo is that I'd like to be able to take a friend out occasionally. I'm wondering if it's feasible to think that I could find a tandem that I could also comfortably paddle solo, though. 

[vivian]

Hi Jonathan, I own a Hemlock Kestrel which is a narrow solo canoe designed for lightweight paddlers. It is not a canoe I would consider poling even in the calmest of waters. However, what makes the canoe unstable for poling also makes it easy to paddle and very efficient for long distance trips. You have to decide how you want to explore the Everglades.

In comparing canoes to kayaks, think of sit on top kayaks as very stable to fish out of but not very efficient for covering the miles. A kayak designed for touring or long distance paddling is generally more unstable to fish out of than a sit on top kayak. However, you will cover many miles faster with less energy expended. 

Canoes that are designed to cover the miles easily "solo" are long and narrow with lower profiles to cheat the wind. Wider canoes meant to be paddled or poled are wider and have higher profiles (wind affected) can work for two people or a motor.

[Gary M]

Jonathan,

All good questions!  Let me ask you one.  What do you expect to use your canoe for *most* of the time?  All boats, canoes included, are a compromise.  Unless you lock yourself into a solo, most tandems will do all of what you seem to want, but some will do some things better than others. There are ways to load canoes easier, but if you can paddle a tandem is something only you can find out by trying.  Rent some and see.   If you really expect to do, mostly, 2 to 6 day solo camping trips, then you probably want the one of the solos mentioned above, with better than average capacity.

I've been using canoes as my primary fishing platform for a few decades now. I now do lots of single overnight trips, and I paddle large tandems by myself, but I'm bigger than you and used to years of it. 

A few things I believe are that you want to have a exterior of gelcoat 'cuz you can fix the inevitable S FL damage; skip the electric motor - the weight of the motor plus battery negates any advantages; and if you plan on poling you are looking for more width than most solos, but that will effect your glide and ease of paddling... like I said... compromises.

[Jason Berry]

Hi Jonathan, The advice below is all great. Like you, I was faced with the same dilemma of what to choose when I switched to a canoe. Since making the switch to canoes, I've logged more miles than I could have ever imagined in a sit on top. Connie is probably right about it being more the person than the boat, but for me completing the WW was a dream before. Now, not only is that type of trip very manageable, I don't even think twice about putting in 20+ miles a day if needed. Loading and unloading is a breeze and you don't waste time stuffing compartments or worrying about being wet all the time. You do sacrifice some sea-worthiness but this can be compensated to some degree with spray skirts and common sense. 

Currently my primary Everglades canoe is a Wenonah Jensen 17ft tandem configured as a solo boat with the addition of center seat. When I want to take my two small daughters camping with me I just put the front and rear seats back in and off we go. We have plenty of room and I can still get a few days of gear and water for multiple people. That being said, most of my time is spent soloing and a tandem boat while very versatile can be a lot of unnecessary work on the water if you mostly plan to paddle by yourself. As Gary mentions all boats have compromises. Paddling a tandem near the middle makes the center station "wide" compared to most modern solo boats. I have fairly long arms at 6'1" and survive by swinging a slightly longer than normal paddle, however my friend who is around 5'8" and a very accomplished paddler actually hates it(claims too far a reach and difficult to manage). This extra width is great for standing if you want to pole. I used to think I wanted to stand and considered this a requirement in boat selection. I can actually stand quite easily in this boat but rarely find the need or desire to do so... Additionally, if you think you would like to also kneel and paddle, it can be very difficult in a tandem to brace with your knees because the boat is so wide at the center. This may sound like more cons than pros, but I actually do love my tandem. It has been a good all around boat and can be really loaded down for long trips. It's just not great at any one thing and you will have to accept that with just about any tandem canoe used for soloing. 

I'm having a new expedition canoe built for me now and will soon give up my soloing days in a tandem designed boat, but if you can only have one boat and want a versatile all around design, a smaller tandem is a great way to enter the canoe realm. Look on-line for used boats, keep researching and test as many as you can on the water. Keep an eye on the width at the paddle station and make sure it fits your size requirements. 

Good luck!

Jason 

[vivian]

Hi Jason, curious as to what is the new expedition canoe you are having built?  From your experience paddling the Everglades, what canoes did you consider for paddling our waters?

The reason I ask is that for many years I have used SOT and touring kayaks for fishing and camping. A few years ago I got the solo canoe bug and tried a few settling on the Kestrel and also sold all my kayaks. But there is one thing that I loved about the kayak when crossing those big windswept waves and that is a rudder.  I don't actually need one but after test paddling a Kruger Seawind recently, I can see the benefits in more speed with less effort wasted on correction strokes. Great boat but heavy and too much boat for me. 

Did you ever consider adding a rudder on that Jensen?

[Jason Berry]

Hi Vivian, The canoe is made by Scott Smith of Superior Canoes, it's the "Expedition" model and is basically a variation of the great Kruger Seawind design. I hope to take delivery in the next few weeks. This is a style of canoe I would not have considered when I first started paddling, but now that I'm doing longer trips and spending more time in open water I believe it will be my best option. I also plan to start expedition racing this year and needed something that can handle extended periods in open water safely.

When I was first switching from SOT to canoe I paddled my friend's Lotus BJX a lot and researched available solo canoes like crazy. Although the BJX was too narrow and lacked enough initial stability for my liking (tough boat to fish in), I have paddled it on long days with ease. The nearly 17ft length tracked well on open stretches and my experience in this canoe had me leaning toward a longer solo boat to cover distance efficiently. I looked at Wenonah Prism and Solo Plus models as well as the Swift Shearwater and Bell Magic among others. All great tripping boats that tracked straight. I mostly sit and switch and these all fit the bill. Nearly purchased a Mad River Independence, it's a great boat but didn't quite have the depth I wanted for big waves. When the Jensen became available at an excellent price I made the purchase. For a long tandem the Jensen is still relatively slender (31-32" at paddle station), it's fast and tracks very straight. Being able to fit my girls was a bonus. I own a Mad River Lamoille which is a super tripping boat for two or three adults but when you're the only motor, the voluminous 18.5ft hull is a bear in the wind and tides. My daughters were too small to help paddle and I would come home from even overnight trips worn out. The Jensen was my compromise and has served well. I'm definitely not getting rid of it at this time. I did consider a rudder and spray skirt but at the end of the day the boat itself is still a bit too big for me to be really efficient. While the rudder would be great for open/windy crossings I wanted something more geared towards solo tripping.

The Superior Expedition is on the extreme side of a solo canoe for sure and is definitely a lot of boat that many people may not wish to deal with. For me personally, this is what I've found myself moving towards now that I know the Evergldaes better having spent time in many areas of the park in varied conditions/seasons. I hope this new canoe gets me deeper and further than ever before. 

Sorry for getting this thread a bit off topic!  

Jason

[Jonathan]

Hi Gary,

I think the boat would probably most often be used for for 2 and 3 day trips (weekends,) with longer trips over winter and spring break, and I'd be either alone or with one friend -- hence the desire for a tandem. (I have friends that don't have boats, and with only my 'yak I've always had to go alone.)

I'd probably bring a fishing rod/tackle, and fish in the evenings and mornings, but would want something that I can paddle efficiently from point A to point B. It doesn't have to be really fast, I just don't want to feel like I'm killing myself to get the thing to move forward. 

I suspect, as you and Vivian suggested, that I might have trouble finding a boat that I can pole and still handle comfortably solo -- in that case, I'd probably give up the ability to pole the boat and get something a bit narrower.

I suspect my next step is to do as you've suggested and try to rent a smaller tandem and see what happens.

[Jonathan]

Hi Jason, everything you've mentioned in your first paragraph sums up why I'm looking to make the transition. I like the idea of loading/unloading the boat easily, and of being able to put in longer days and more miles (20+ sounds awesome!).

A question about seating arrangements, though -- do you feel like the addition of a center seat is essential for being able to solo a tandem? I've heard of people soloing by sitting in the stern seat (in boats without molded seats), facing the boat the "wrong way" around, with 2/3 or so of the boat in front of them. I'm guessing that arrangement would make the reach easier by placing the paddler in a narrower section of the boat, but would likely also make the boat harder to control, right?

Also, did you ever feel like 17 feet was pushing the length limit a bit out there, for instance, in the mangrove country? I'm guessing the length is probably great on open water.