Kayak Canoe survey

[Miami101]

Hi
Folks
New to the site, and have a large amount of questions. I will try to sick to the items not found on http://www.evergladesdiary.com/ in the gear section.

I wanted to start with a Kayak vs. Canoe question. I hope it is O.K. to ask this question.

At present I own a Hobie Kayak for two which got me into the water, and some trouble from time to time. At present I'm looking for something that could help me go deeper into Flamingo. My past trips I have had to Kayak Hell Bay up, and past maker 200, and back the same day. In other words some time around 3:00 AM we landed in Hell Bay, and started to paddle. Also we did not have a map, no radio, and one GPS. At present I think I was very lucky, and feel I have to do my home work, and take the time to learn from folks on this site.

I notice a few guy on the site with Kayak, and some with Canoe. I was looking at the follow, and would love some input from you guys who have been doing this longer, and would know what really counts.

I was thinking about the following getting a Native Kayak/Canoe. It is a hybrid, and from what I have been reading allows you to stand in it with out any issues. Also the seat looks to be very good, and can be used as a camp/beach chair.

Has anyone used this on the site, or can provide input base on information.

Native Ultimate 12
Length: 12' 1" / 368 cm
Width: 30" / 76 cm
Weight: 55 lbs / 25 kg
CAPACITY: 350 lbs / 159 kg

Native Ultimate Tegris 12
Length: 12' / 366 cm
Width: 31" / 79 cm
Weight: 36 lbs / 16.5 kg
CAPACITY: 350 lbs / 159 kg

Native Ultimate 12 Elite
LENGTH: 12' 1" / 368 cm
WIDTH: 30" / 76 cm
WEIGHT: 55 lbs / 25 kg
DEPTH AT BEAM: 12" / 30 cm
CAPACITY: 350 lbs / 159 kg

LENGTH: 14' 7" / 445 cm
WIDTH: 31" / 79 cm
WEIGHT: 58 lbs / 26 kg
DEPTH AT BEAM: 12" / 30 cm
CAPACITY: 450 lbs / 204 kg

Here are some photos:

[Keith W]

Nice boat. I don't think I like the molded stern thwart, I like to be able to move mine or take it out entirely depending on what I'm packing. That said, this looks like a winner for short trips or day trips, and you can STAND in it. They have a 16' model which would be better for long-distance tripping. Their website is horribly slow and I gave up trying to see their other models.

The inability to stand up whenver I want to is the deal-breaker for me and kayaks. That and sitting in a puddle of water all day. And capacity. And unloading at a chickee. And no place to put my rather large Pelican camera case. But other than that kayaks are just fine :-)

[Miami101]

Do you think the width is fine? Do you think the width is fine?
I have notice some of the guys have long Kayak do these track faster?

[Terry]

All I use is my 1965 Ouchita aluminum 15 foot 2-seater backwards for solo trips
and my early 1980's Grumman 17 foot aluminum for tandem trips. I have no complaints,
my son and I paddled the Grumman from Tamiami Trail/L-67, down the Shark River Slough to
Canepatch in one day. The next day we went all the way from Canepatch to Flamingo. Two
34-mile, 13-hour days back to back! That was a hell-of-a-trip, one of the best.
The Ouchita has done the WW through trip 3 times, the last time I paddled it solo
backwards from Hells Bay Trail to Collier Seminole State Park,
that trip even included Plate Creek Chickee, out
Huston River to Picnic Key in one day. The Grumman has done the through trip
twice, my son with me once and my daughter on another trip. The only thing I'd do differently
would be to remember to bring a folding chair for the campsites, a chaise would be nice.
I already bring a 4-inch thick foam sleeping pad and two full size pillows, hey, with age comes
wisdom and you start thinking your way through strong tidal currents, do some planning and
be comfortable.
I couldn't begin to guess the amount of day trips the canoes have made. My son caught his
first snook from the Grumman in West Lake, he was 7. Both my kids rode in them as cargo
when they were babies - a baby bucket type car seat in the middle and a towel thrown over
them to keep them from burning up.
It's unbelievable how they hold up, currently I'm helping the ENP Canoe Trail Clearing Crew
on the Bear Lake Trail. Drop logs down on the canoe, chainsaw from in the canoe and drag it over
anything, they still are working fine. Decades ago I turned the Ouchita upside down on Cape Sable
to use as shelter from one of those nasty storms after my cheap gear was scattered everywhere.
And, it wasn't mine, but in the 1970's some other canoers suspended a Grumman over a small
fire to use as a warm water bath at Watson's Place. From the looks of both my canoes,
they will probably be the only ones I'll ever have. My kids can have them when they bury me.
Actually the Ouchita isn't even mine, it's my mom's!

[Rolando Willimann]

Canoe's are the better choice for backcountry paddling as they allow you easy access to gear, you are sitting higher up so you see much more, and you stay dry! The only disadvantage they have is they do not fair well in wind and chop, thus why they are backcountry craft. Kayaks, and I mean sea-kayaks (cockpit boats), not sit-on-top kayaks will paddle more efficiently than a canoe and they are designed to perfrom in heavy seas and wind...on my last trip we had a headwind 7 out of 9 days, usually around 15-20 knots, and the low-profile nature of the kayaks allowed us to make 15-20 miles regardless of the wind. Now with kayaks you sit lower, gear is not usually easily accessed while on the water, and in order to stay dry you need a skirt...also, entering and exiting a kayak requires more concentration than just stepping out of a canoe.

For fishing I prefer canoes because of the higher vantage point and the fact my gear is at my fingertips...but I rarely use a canoe for fishing since I usually end up fishing on windy days (murphy's law I guess), thus why I'm usually in the kayak. The kayaks you were looking at, the native ultimates, are basically canoes, so they need floatation and they are backwater boats like canoes. For the money I feel you could do better as the Native boats are heavy, and the Tegris material isn't worth what they ask for it. Check out some solo canoes if you were looking at an Native, you'll probably spend less and get a much lighter boat...a good person to ask about canoes is Vivian, she can tell you everything you want to know about canoes.

[vivian]

I started paddling and camping the Everglades around 1996 out of a sit on top kayak. The kayak had twin hatches not the tankwell that is so popular with today's sit on tops. It was easy to get in and out of and carried an awful lot of gear. The problem I had with the SOT is I was constantly exposed to the elements. For a 2 night or 3 night trip it was not a problem.

A few years after that when I wanted to extend my range of 8 - 10 miles and do more paddling than fishing I bought a touring kayak. It was fast and very seaworthy especially while exploring the gulf from Flamingo to Everglades City. It also kept me dry and warm when the winds and cold weather hit. I was able to do more miles with less effort because the kayak had a more efficient hull than the SOT kayak. My gear was safe and dry under the hatches. My cockpit was dry too because I had a spray deck. But packing was tedious especially when the bugs were bad and we had to get out of camp quickly.

In the past four years I decided that I had done the gulf coast so many times I would look into exploring the backcountry away from the wilderness waterway trail. The kayak was overkill for the back waters and it was problematic for getting on and off the campgrounds and chickees. In some places there is nowhere to get out and stretch because of the quicksand like mud and being confined to one position all day was killing my back. I started using a solo canoe and added a splash deck for use in the gulf and when the winds were really bad in the backcountry. And they can be very bad! So far, I am happy with this choice and can't recall a time when I have wanted my kayak instead. I have not had anymore problems with wind affecting my canoe than with the kayak. But again, the kayak was better in surf landings and exits. I think that is the only thing that I could not do with the canoe safely. But then again I am not as good a paddler as Keith and Terry.

The true solo canoe is not a sit on bottom canoe like the Native. Your seat can be lowered or raised to either sit or kneel for better control and especially when you are in rougher water. The Wenonah canoes are designed more for sitting but I have a friend that uses the Vagabond and she can do either. This helps to ease body pain from many hours of paddling and you can stand or raise yourself up in a high kneeling position to scout ahead. That is why I prefer a true solo canoe over a sit on bottom canoe.

The Native is a great fishing hybrid canoe/kayak but it is not designed for extended mileage trips.Personally I don't find it as seaworthy as a well designed solo canoe. I also agree with Keith that the molded areas make packing more troublesome than it needs to be. You need to ask yourself what it is you want to do. Is it just an overnight or two night stay at one of the chickees or islands with a little exploring along the way? If so, then the Native would be a good enough choice.

If you want to travel more than 12 miles a day and really get into the backcountry, pick an efficient canoe design. Visit www.wenonah.com or www.bellcanoe.com and see what they have to offer in solo canoe designs. You can use a kayak paddle until you learn how to use a canoe paddle. Also, if you do order one get the optional foot brace it will be much more comfortable and you can put more power into your stroke. I recommend a book by Cliff Jacobsen for preliminary reading. http://www.amazon.com/Basic-Essentials-Solo-Canoeing-2nd/dp/0762705248

Good websites to ask questions and get answers from expert paddlers. Some of the people that post there are a wealth of information and know a heck of alot more than me.

www.solotripping.com

www.paddling.net

Keith helped me quite a bit with making my decision to get rid of my kayak and go with the canoe. Thanks Keith!

[Miami101]

Good information I will look into the above information. I think I have seen some of these used.
On my sit on top Kayak I have gone 18 miles two ways. I'm looking to start sleeping over, and I don't think I can take another 18 miles each direction again.......The main reason I like the Native was the stand up fishing..but I'm not sure how it tracks in the water.

I looking forward to getting deeper into the back country it will bring to life some of the books I have read.

Thank you guys for the feed back once again. This has been the only site I found people who love getting back country....other then here everyone thinks I'm crazy..

[Rolando Willimann]

I think we're all crazy...and thats the best way to be!

[Miami101]

Hi
Folks
I pick up the Native 12, and a Grumman Canoe 17 Ft. I will be testing out both, and make some mods to fit my needs. I got the Grumman for under $400..................keep your eyes on Criaglist I saw one go for $200.
Thank you guys for the information.

[Miami101]

I picked up the Native 14 lighter, moves like a Kayak, and fits lots of stuff on it.
I will take photos of it, and I'm going to do some long range trips soon.

[Miami101]

I think after picking up both the Native 12/14/ I'm thinking about picking 12 Grumman a 17 is to long to move.....also I feel kind of limited for long trips.